Spill The Beans
I have a conffesion to make. I AM A CHRISTIAN. Everybody gasp! I have another confession to make. I AM CONSERVATIVE. More gasps! I am also a easy going guy. If you are not a Christian or conservative I will be your friend. Our personal beliefs sometimes just need to stay in our head. Sometime meaning if two friends are so disagreeable on an issue that their friendship is in trouble. It’s just not worth it.
Christian Nation, US?
Who still believes that we are a Christian nation? If you do please tell me why in a comment. Our nation does not look like Jesus. Christians are to look like Jesus in their love and actions. Us Christians don’t always get this right but the idea is to move closer into His likeness.
One Example
What do you do when you drive past the man holding a sign that says, “Homeless, hungry, god bless” What do you do? WWJD? Jesus may not feed the man because he would know if he was just a panhandler. If the man had just lost his job because our bad economy then Jesus may help the man find a new one. What do we do? I just assume he is a panhandler and keep driving.
Your Thoughts
Do you think we are a Christian nation? If so, why? If not, why?
No and for several reasons:
1) Most of our founding fathers were Desist’s not Christians.
2) We are a country based on religious freedom and therefore have no national religion. Essentially having more people who identify as Christian doesn’t make us a Christian nation.
3) I think there has been a perversion of the teachings of Jesus which centered around social justice, helping the out casts and the poor. This was his focus, he believed in separation of church and state (Render to Cesar what is Cesar’s and to God what is God) and I think using his name to rally up political support especially around issues that wouldn’t have been his focus (while ignoring the ones that would be) is the definition of using his name in vain.
I think the way some Christians live would put them into the category of deist.
I can’t find one thing wrong with you comment.
Anybody else want to chime in?
The short answer is no, at least not now if we ever were. The analysis of the question makes the answer obsolete. I think a good many Christians spend too much time focusing on the state of the nation and not enough time focusing on God. What we do in our walk should reflect an example of Christ. This is the best encouragement we can give for others to do the same. The emphasis should be in the service that we give and not what’s being done around us.
John 13:15-17 (NIV) I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.
The pleasure of God will rest on those of us who keep faith in His promises; not with those who point out the short comings of others. Each will receive a reward in accordance with what they have done.
Revelation 22:10-12 (NIV) Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near. Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy.” “Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.
Blessings,
Matt.
Thanks for your comment Matthew. I agree the focus should be on God and not so much on the state of the nation.
Thanks for the scriptures.
Anyone else have two cents?
Hey Mel, glad to hear we can still be online pals considering I’m an agnostic Socialist and you’re a Christian conservative!
I think it is undisputable that the US has been hugely influenced by Christianity… it has also been influenced by other religions and the people that took them to the US from elsewhere. What the US is supposed to be is a mix of cultures, relgions, colours and creeds, hopefully taking the best (but sadly sometimes the worst) aspects of each. A debate about whether the countries legal framework is based on Christianity or not is a different matter. What is sure though is that the Christian religion has influenced the US and its development in a major way, for better or for worse.
I agree that it has been influenced by Christianity. I think a lot of Christian in the US mindlessly say that the US is a Christian nation. They don’t know what they are talking about. When one looks at the life of Christ as represented in the Gospels and then looks at the lifestyle of the US they will notice a huge difference.
I think first we must define what one means by “Christian Nation” – that is probably where I should have started.
Dude what’s up with you Brits and adding u’s to everything?
Actually I catch myself adding a u to several words. I must read things that are British English. Also since living in Germany I catch myself adding sch at the end of certain words. Example: English – Englisch
Lol, yeah I know, the ‘u’ thing is weird… basically the US gov standardised (with an s of course!) the language over there at the turn of the 20th century (I think) to take the ‘u’s out (as well as other Anglo spellings), as they are pretty superfluous. I imagine a lot of people view me as an illiterate idiot who can’t spell when I leave comments around WP half the time… and that’s only partially true damn them!
If you go around putting the ’sch’ on the end of words when you speak you’ll sound Dutch!
Oh, and I’ve never understood why US phrase ‘I’ll write him’ exists, which is shortened from ‘I’ll write to him’…no that’s REALLY cutting down!
Hey Mel, I love this post and you look soooo content standing there in front of that cruiser with your sign. I too am a Christian, maybe not a very good one, and I am also a conservative, probably not a very good one, but I believe we are a Christian nation, most definately not a very good one as far as looks go. But, Mel, we are far, far ahead of any other nation that can boast second place. The greatest reason to claim our fame as a Christian nation comes to us from the Book of Titus, chapter three, verse number one, “PUT THEM IN MIND TO BE SUBJECT TO PRINCIPALITIES AND POWERS, TO OBEY MAGISTRATES, TO BE READY TO EVERY GOOD WORK.” Mel, we are a Christian nation because every president from George Washington to George W. Bush has proclaimed that we are a Christian nation and Holy Scripture demands that we honour them. Mr. Obama was the one; the only one, to jump overboard on this issue. Good news is, Jesus loves him and says we are to honour him too.
First Peter, chapter two, verses number seventeen and eighteen, “HONOUR ALL MEN. LOVE THE BROTHERHOOD. FEAR GOD. HONOUR THE KING. SERVANTS, BE SUBJECT TO YOUR MASTERS WITH ALL FEAR; NOT ONLY THE GOOD AND GENTLE, BUT ALSO TO THE “FROWARD”…” Let there be no mistake, WE ARE A CHRISTIAN NATION!
Thanks for your comment.
You said: “Mel, we are a Christian nation because every president from George Washington to George W. Bush has proclaimed that we are a Christian nation and Holy Scripture demands that we honour them.”
My Response:
We can honor our president and not believe everything they say at the same time. I’ll follow their leading but not mindlessly.
Because the President says something doesn’t make it so.
Evidence can help us draw a better conclusion of whether or not we are a Christian nation:
America is around 6% of the worlds population but we consume over 40% of its resources.
We say things like, “God bless America” but with those kinds of resources we should bless others in the world who have 0 to none.
How many cars do you own? 92% of the people in the world don’t own a car.
1 Billion people in the world don’t have access to clean drinking water.
800 million people haven’t eaten today, 300 million of those are kids. Every couple of seconds somebody dies from hunger.
1 Billion people live on less than one dollar a day.
To provide water, basic health and nutrition for everyone would cost around 20 billion dollars. This is how much Americans spend on ICE CREAM in one year.
We are blessed by God. What are we doing as individuals, as a community of believers, as a nation of believers (keep in mind that not everybody in our nation is a believer) to help the rest of the world.
Everything we have is a gift from God. He gives to us so that we can give to others. Most Christians from America that I know are so oblivious to the rest of the world’s problems and are so consumed in themselves.
Until EVERY Christian in America does something to help the poor, prisoner, widow, orphan, and those starving in the world I do not believe we can say this is a Christ-like nation.
Thanks for your comment though. I appreciate your point of view. You have helped me think deeper on the issue, which is always good. I hope I have done the same for you.
PS: That is not me in the picture. That is a picture I found on Google.
Mel, Thank you so very much for your reply to my comment. I must agree with you on your assessment, “I’ll follow their leading but not mindlessly.”
I am hesitant to say that as a pastor, I led my church into the mission field as one of our top churches. We built schools and orphanages in Jamica, Haiti, India, as well as Africa. We provided those wells so that the people wouldn’t have to drink from dirty streams running among huts where sewage ran into the streets. That didn’t make me a Christian.
I must admit that I had a beautiful childhood. It was in the coal fields of Harlan County Kentucky where I lived in a four room house with my parents, six brothers and four sisters. We had no inside plumbing and carried our water from a community hydrant. There were no screens on the windows and no insulation in the walls. My dad had no car at all and he and my mom would catch the bus to go the eighteen miles to town. We walked to school and ate no lunch other than a piece of cornbread. Many times there was no supper and I went to bed hungry; it was the time of my life, I loved it. That didn’t make me a non-Christian.
This generation of Americans will never know the absolute beauty of the America that I was blessed with. My character was molded by teachers that could correct not just my papers, but my behavior, and large families existed because abortion wasn’t even named. I didn’t sass my elders and policemen and firemen were bigger than life. Sure, Mel, there were times when I didn’t have shoes, there were times when I didn’t have food, but I was never in a place in America where I didn’t have access to Jesus. That is what this society wants to take away from me and that is one thing I am unwilling to give up. There is a great equalizer called death that will eventually unite us all on common ground where all that matters is our knowledge of Christ. I knew Jesus in my want and I know Jesus still. It isn’t so much that I have need of a Christian nation, but what about those in power that have stolen the wealth of a nation and stand in spiritual poverty?
Thanks for sharing that. I say amen to all of your hard work for the Kingdom of God.
I am not interested in a Christian nation but a nation of Christians. There is a difference.
Hopefully we will be known for our love for others. If one professes to know and follow Jesus but they don’t love (which is acts of service) then they must ask themselves if they are truly a follower of Jesus.
What you have done on missions trips is rare among those who profess to follow Jesus.
See you say that there has never been a time when you didn’t have access to Jesus. I agree with you on this. There are churches services galore to be found each Sunday.
But there are other faiths that can be found as well. Though I think all other faiths are bogus this doesn’t eliminate the fact that they are there.
We have freedom of religion in this country. I suppose to say that the United States is a Christian nation really depends on how one defines “Christian nation.”
Thanks once again Mel, and I do believe that we are on the same page concerning this “Christian nation” issue. I too, believe that any religion that is built upon anything other than Jesus exists only in the mind of those who follow after such folly. Jesus said, “I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE; NO MAN COMETH UNTO THE FATHER, BUT BY ME.”
My, ‘not fear,’ but my grave concern is that when any national leader declares that “we are not a Christian nation, but a nation of citizens…,” there is an underlying attempt to remove the ‘Truth’ altogether, leaving us with only the folly. Have a great day, I have enjoyed sharing with you.
Thanks for dropping by and discussing this issue. Come back anytime.
You might want to watch the whole video of that speech. Obama also said we are not a nation of Muslims or Jews and he elaborated on the KIND of citizens that we strive to be in America. I am
not a big Obama fan but I find it unnecessary for someone to deliberately incite anger by leaving out key parts of a speech. I am a Christian, I believe in the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. There are people in this Country with high ideals, good morals, hearts full of kindness and love for their fellow man, who are of other faiths. I have no reason to find fault with them. There is a strong faction of the radical right which is destroying the Republican Party and inciting hate and I do not find that to be a Christian thing to do. Respectfully. Brad
I once asked an author friend how she felt about being categorized as a “Christian author.” I found her reply rather interesting. She stated she was an author who was a Christian but not a Christian author.
While the difference may be subtle, I think it might be pertinent to the discussion – especially in regards to your “nation of Christians” statement.
On the one hand, I’d like to see a bit more faith in our country. On the other hand, I would not like to see our country “categorized” as a Christian nation. Again, I think it is a subtle distinction but important.
Shouldn’t Christians be known by their actions rather than their place of residence?
layrenewal.wordpress.com
“Shouldn’t Christians be known by their actions rather than their place of residence?”
Well said.
Did you know that you can add your site to your gravatar? This way you don’t have to add your site link at the end of a post.
how are we not a christian nation? that statement goes against everything that our founding fathers believed in.
John Quincy Adams said “The highest glory of the American Revolution was that it connected an indissoluble bond, the principals of civil government with Christian government.”
A supreme court ruling in 1796 reaffirmed that statement in Runkel vs. Winemiller, stating: “By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established religion and all sects and denominations are place upon the same equal footing.”
James Madison said “We have staked the whole future of the American civilization not upon the bowers of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves according to the ten commandments of God”
this nation was a christian nation, is a christian nation and always will be a christian nation, so long as the people in it remain a virtuous and moral people. i could go on and give hundreds of more quotes from the founders of our nation, but that would be pointless.
I am moving to Germany where they have state churches. The two state churchs in Germany are Lutheran & Catholic. They are required to pay a state church tax. 94% of the church members do not attend services on Sunday.
I think Operation World says that Germany is around 64% Christian but there statistic comes straight from those who have a membership with the state churches. God looks at the heart of men and not memberships.
It is not important that this country be a Christian Nation unless one is more concerned with our nation having this title than they are with each individual following after Jesus. I am for the later.
Tru Alaskan – With all due respect, as a founding father, Thomas Jefferson might slightly disagree.
I do GREATLY affirm that our nation was founded by Godly men who lived their lives as men who followed the Christian faith. They believed (as do I) that the Christian religion was the greatest way in which to insure that our nation would uphold truth and justice for all people.
However, in my reading of history, I believe there was to be freedom of religion. All “sects” were to be given “the same equal footing.”
I would love to be convinced otherwise, but again, I would rather be a nation of Christians who live out their faith as a testimony to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I think that would have a greater impact than a mandated state religion.
OH – And how do I build in the link?
Thx
Go to your
1. wordpress dashboard
2. Users (left sidebar)
3. Your Profile
4. Scroll Down until you see website (found under heading “Contact Info”
5. Type in your website (make sure to include the http:// in front of your website
Example: Your site would be http://layrenewal.wordpress.com
You could just copy and paste that. Once you enter your website scroll to the bottom and click update profile.
It should work right away but sometimes wordpress is a bit slow so make sure you give it a few min to see results.
Thanks!
im not debating the fact that we need to live our faith personally. I am debating the fact, that this country was founded a christian nation. i have read books about the founding fathers. and they did indeed intend this country to be created on christianity.
And in the “all sects are to be on the same equal footing” it specified all “christian” sects were to be on the same equal footing. that supreme court ruling said nothing about any other religion. Christianity was what our nation was founded on. even though our politicians today do not understand that fact, and most people are blind to it as well.
From a biblical point of view does it matter? Did Jesus die to establish a Christian nation?
He told his disciples to go to all nations (which is better translated people-groups) and make more disciples.
I see your point but I am not sure how relevant it is biblically.
My question is: What does it mean to be a Christian nation and is that idea biblical?
As you know Christ can never be forced on somebody because that would go against their free will that has been given them by their Creator.
Tru Alaskan: Are we quibbling over semantics? Your statement: “they did indeed intend this country to be created on Christianity” is one with which I would completely agree – emphasis on the word “ON”. It is woven throughout their speeches, letters – even in the Declaration of Independence!
But – Did they intend it to be a “Christian nation?” I would view those words defined as a nation in which religion is forced upon the people – much as Islam is forced upon those in Islamic nations.
I believe our country was founded on Biblical principles and intended to be run in a Biblical manner. That said, I still don’t think that means the same thing as a Christian nation. Because we have freedom of religion, that allows for the freedom to worship. If one wants to worship his or her underwear, that is their prerogative. In my opinion, that makes the person an idiot, but they have that freedom as defined by our Constitution.
So – Do I pray we become a nation whereby our leaders recognize the Authority of an Almighty God? Yes, Yes and YES! But again, semantically, to me that means we are predominantly a nation of Christians – a nation to which people will be attracted because of the love of Christ exhibited by the people.
i know that. i’m just trying to point out that our nation was founded on christianity. if you read the founding fathers our government will not last long without christianity. they said it time and time again that our nation was and needs to be a CHRISTIAN nation, not a muslim nation, or a jewish nation. our founding fathers made it very very clear, that it was a CHRISTIAN government and nothing else. John Jay the first Chief justice of the supreme court said this “Providence has given to our people the choice of these rulers and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of a CHRISTIAN nation to prefer christians for their rulers”
Christian government, is this a government based on biblical principles? This I totally agree with.
Why didn’t you use the quote “We are not a Muslim nation” ? He said that. Oh, wait, that would not have incited the radicals. No wonder people now look at the Republican Party as the Party of Hate.
The radical right has destroyed the Republican Party with their cut and paste videos and their
email lies. If you can’t make a point without lying and making stuff up, then that point is not valid.
Go get your own political party and name it what it really is….try something like The Party of Hate
and Lies. Obviously you are trying to destroy our Country.
I didn’t use the quote because I know we are not a Muslim nation. No one is debating that. The debate is are we a Christian nation. I don’t care if Obama or Mickey Mouse said it, who said it is not the point.
I am not radical right.
What videos have been cut and pasted?
Wait, who are you talking to? I am assuming me because your comment is under my comment. But you are really vague.
Why would the party I belong to be the party of hate?
Why do you think I am trying to destroy this country?
I am first and foremost a Christian/follower of Jesus. Secondly I am a citizen the United States and side more so with conservatism than liberalism, though I think a biblical point of view is best, which this country is letting slip away.
Separation of Church and state was the intent of the writers of the Constitution and reaffirmed in many court cases. Writings recongnize a “God” or a “Supreme Being” but nowhere does it say that God is our Christian God!
The Treaty of Tripoli, ratified by Congress in 1797, has the following:
“ARTICLE 11.
As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,…”
In reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom: “Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting the words “Jesus Christ,” so that it should read, “A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;” the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.”
-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography
In the 1879 decision Reynolds v. U.S., for example, the [Supreme] court observed that Jefferson’s writings “…may be accepted as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the [First] Amendment.”
Jefferson wrote: “Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between church and State.”
This was, by the way, not the only time Jefferson used this phrase. It appears again in a letter he wrote to Viriginia Baptists in 1808: “Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person’s life, freedom of religion affects every individual. State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the “wall of separation between church and state,” therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.”
Madison also referred more than once to the concept of a wall of separation. In a letter from 1819, he wrote “…the number, the industry and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church and state.” In an even earlier and undated essay (probably early 1800s), Madison wrote, “Strongly guarded…is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States.”
“Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect ‘a wall of separation between Church and State.” The U.S. Supreme Court, 1947″
Article VI, section 3, of The Constitution states that:: “… no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.”
YAY God!